Last week, I ranted a bit about one of the bigger money grabs in the wine industry–the obscene 200-400% mark-up for wine at restaurants. Just writing that makes me writhe in pain all over again. I wish I could get over it, but I can’t. I guess I am weak.
This week I have another money grab to rant about in the wine industry–tasting room fees.
When I first started getting into wine, really only the wineries in Napa charged tasting room fees. They usually did not charge all that much, rarely more than $10. Other regions: Sonoma, Woodinville, WA, Sta. Rita Hills, and everywhere in Europe rarely charged any tasting fee (except for the big Champagne houses in Reims and Epernay, but we all know how pretentious they are).
I do not know exactly when or why it happened, but now it seems like everyone charges a tasting fee: The big wineries, the small wineries, the really, really small wineries, the good producers, and the sucky not-so-good producers. All of them have a tasting fee. And it is no longer $5-10. Now it seems that the minimum is $15 and it goes up from there.
This past week, we were out in Napa/Sonoma and I wanted to visit a few “new” (at least to me) and “different” (I can’t be a Pinot whore all my life) wineries, trying to branch out. I thought I would try some of the more famous and legendary wineries. As I started to set up appointments, however, it became clear that it was going to cost me a small fortune just to taste these wines.
There was a certain Napa heavy hitter producer whose Pinot is fantastic. I called to get an appointment. The response? “Our tasting fee is $30, which includes a glass.”
I already have a bunch of glasses (when they used to give them out for free).
Pass.
So I called another well-known Napa Valley winery, which I visited several years ago and has really well-respected wines. Tasting Fee? $40 for the “reserve” tasting.
I have a few “reservations” about that, no thanks.
A third, the off shoot of a Napa Valley legend, has a beautiful property and a magnificent tour (so I have heard). Tasting Fee? $50 (one fee waived with a six bottle purchase of single vineyard wines [$50+ a pop]). You also get a plate of “artisinal” cheese.
I like cheese.
$50?!?
50????
“Artisinal” cheese?!?
Please.
So I passed on all of these big name wineries; there are a lot of smaller guys and gals that are making some great wine. They seem to be more focused on each individual customer and each sale of their wine matters.
So does charging a tasting fee, apparently. Everywhere I went (except one of my old standbys, Siduri) there were tasting fees.
There seems to be variations of three general approaches:
1. No tasting fee (very rare).
2. A tasting fee which is waived with a minimum purchase.
3. Tasting fee no matter what (still rare, but more prevalent than no fee at all).
It was that last one that sent me over the edge. My wife and I both were charged $15 to taste four wines at a particular Sonoma winery. None were particularly noteworthy, but I was all set to “invest” the tasting fee into buying a bottle. It made sense to me: You are charging me $15 already, I might as well spend another $15 and buy a bottle of your over priced plonk. I looked at it as a kind of a “discount” (I realize that this is at best twisted logic, but I never said I was a perfectly sane individual). When I asked if they applied the tasting fees to the purchase of a bottle, this is a response I received:
“We don’t believe in refunding tasting fees.”
“Huh?”
Don’t get me wrong, I understand the basic premiss of the tasting fee: the customer is consuming something that the winery otherwise could have sold–once that bottle is open, there is no more potential profit to be made. There are also tasting room employees to be paid as well as paying for the tasting room itself. I get that.
To a point.
There is also such a concept as “the cost of doing business”. If you want to make money, you have to spend some money. If no one ever is allowed to taste your wine, few are actually going to buy it. I understand charging a fee so as to dissuade those who are just looking for some free booze and have no intention of buying anything.
OK fine.
But insisting on charging a separate fee for the tasting even when it means losing a sale? To me that is completely idiotic.
What do you think? Is this just another money grab?
the drunken cyclist 
We were in the Colchagua Valley in Chile a few years ago and all of the wineries charged a minimum of $50 for tastings which included tours. We were shocked as we had gone for free or the $10-15 fee in the US. As a result, we only toured two wineries. We just sucked it up and paid for 1 winery and got to taste a lot of wines. It was actually really nice and seemed worth it. The other winery we were told was free if we bought a bottle of wine. A local called and set it up for us. We tasted 4 wines and some fancy chocolate, and we chose a bottle of wine to buy. When the guy tried to also charge us the tasting fee, we told him we didn’t want the bottle. He waived the tasting fee. 😉
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See, $50 is just ridiculous! But I guess they knew that you had no choice, so they did it. It screams of collusion….
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Yep, just a money grab, and possibly a sign their wines may not be that good anyway 🙂
What next? A fee for those free food tastings in supermarkets and food halls?
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Or a charge to pay for the gas when you test drive a car?
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I’m sorry to hear that the wineries in California now charge tasting fees. So far this has never happened to me when visiting Italian wineries (I tend not visit the big names).
Why do you even want to visit wineries when they charge you money for it?
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I agree, the Europeans seem to see their wines as the product of their craft, which they want to share sine they are proud of what they have created. I can’t count the number of tastings (all free) I have had in France where the wine makers are truly excited to share the wine. They get offended when you offer to pay for the tasting!
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Excellent points, and it brings home the key difference between many European winemakers and US winemakers: While I see a lot of winemakers in Germany still as farmers (smart farmers for sure!), for many over here it seems just like a business. You want to make as much money as you can. While in Germany a lot is more about the product, and about sharing that product. It is a huge difference!
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I just don’t see why it has to be one or the other, but invariably it is. There are some in this country that do seem to “get it” however. Wes Hagen at Clos Pepe comes to mind.
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Jeff, I can join you here – I wholeheartedly say – i HATE tasting fees. They are now all in the absurd territory – $50 for a tasting?There is may be a dozen of wineries in the entire world, where I would agree to pay such an amount. I was at the tasting at one of the Napa wineries. I was coming there as a “trade”, so my tasting was complementary. We tasted about 10 wines, which was pretty much whole portfolio – but those were the wines from 3 separate flights. I didn’t like a single wine, and if I would have to pay for that combined tasting, it would cost me $75! I can go on and on here – this is a terrible money grab, and lately the fees reached the point of absurd.
By the way, even if you don’t come as a trade, there is one possible solution to this problem, and I think we need to somehow share it with our readers – if you plan to visit a winery, stop by your favorite wine store, and ask the owner or sales folks to help – tell them that you plan to visit a particular winery and ask if they can help you with special arrangements. Wine store people can ask then their distributors to get in touch with the wineries and make the arrangements for you ( complementary/different/library tastings) – we did it with the wineries on Long Island and it worked just fine.
Bottom line – this time, you hit the nerve : ) I will reblog your post later on today…
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I should have said that I rarely pay for tastings anymore since I have been writing this blog. I figure if I write something up about the visit, it “costs” me far more than their tasting fee and if someone actually reads what I write, it could be well worth it for them as well.
The place that charged us the fee (it was only $15) had wines that I really did not care for at all. I was tempted to use the “blogger” card, but I felt as though it would have been disingenuous–I was not going to write anything positive about their wines (although the scenery is very nice….).
I never thought about going through a third party to arrange tastings–this is certainly a brilliant idea! The problem with PA, though, is the whole state controlled monopoly. But we all know how I feel about that!
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Most tasting rooms nowadays are held accountable to turn a profit as an individual profit center. So they’re grabbing the money and keeping it any way they can. Obviously there are some exceptions, typically the smaller guys where you find yourself tasting over a barrel near the dock doors.
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I agree on all fronts. Some of my favorites are “smaller guys” B. Kosuge, Clos Pepe, Morlet (even though I can’t afford his wines), where they really take the time with you and give you an experience (and don’t charge you for it–although I think Morlet might be charging now in their new tasting room).
As for making a profit, I am all for that (despite my socialist leanings). I would argue that the wineries that want their tasting rooms to turn a profit should better train their staff in selling their wines. We all know that wineries do not “need” to sell their wine at “retail” in order to turn a profit, so if the retail sales go up in the tasting room, they are making some nice change.
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I certainly agree with your viewpoint. The producers charging $30+ for tasting fees are also pricing themselves above what many people interested in trying their product can afford. (Maybe that is there intent, in which case they are as pretentious as the Champagne houses.)
Honestly, though, I am much more interested in the small wineries that seem to have more of a passion for winemaking than profits. Naturally profits are paramount in a business, but you like to think that the main reason for operating a winery is a passion for your wine. I enjoying having an extended conversation with people in smaller operations who will give you an inside glimpse into their vineyard and winery.
Thankfully, the winery I work at part-time is more focused on producing good wines than anything else. Our tastings cost $3 for 5 samples; $2 extra if you would like to keep the glass. I feel that this is reasonable because it helps cover the costs of operating the tasting room and most importantly, keeps people from trying to take advantage of free booze. Granted, we are in the heart of the midwest so clearly the cost of ANYTHING is quite different than California, but I can’t imagine it would account for that huge of a mark-up.
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Thanks for the comment! It is always nice to hear the opinion of someone ITB. I agree completely and it sounds like the winery where you help out has it about right–charge something to limit the drunkards, and allow the serious customers to recoup the fee(s). If only everyone thought that way!
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The last two tasting tours I did were in Niagara-on-the-Lake and Traverse City. I don’t recall tasting fees, but if there were any they were minimal.
But, yeah, tasting fees are nuts. they say it’s the cost of doing business, but I doubt they are losing $ on the wine. The wine prices are generally the same as if you get it retail – maybe a slight discount. But retail price has other costs involved, so they’re probably making more per bottle.
I kind of view it like the mega-overpriced dinners on our ski trip I just posted. Tastings are generally a tourism thing so they charge “because they can.” When people are on vacation, they usually get a little more carefree with their $. I know I do. Add to that, if it’s a person’s 4th or 5th winery, they really get loose with their $.
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I hear you, a lot of people do not have a problem since they feel that they are paying for the “experience”. Fine. But, I think the goal should be making money on selling their wine (for a fair price), not on gouging every poor sap as soon as they walk in the door. And you are right about the retail price thing. Don’t think for a second that they aren’t still making good $$$ on the wines they sell to their wine clubs, which they “discount” at 20-30% off “retail”. Wholesale prices are usually around half of retail–and they are still making money there….
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We just got home from Niagara, and visited a couple of wineries there. (I just published the blog post about it: http://armchairsommelier.wordpress.com) Anyway, the Canadian wineries we visited charged $1 per taste for their “regular” wines, and $5-7 per taste for the Icewines. Our fees were refunded at both wineries once we purchased $100+ in wines. Not difficult when you’re buying Icewine. But oooof.
I’m basically OK with tasting fees, as long as they are a) reasonable and b) refunded with a purchase. Beyond that, they are chaffing. And with so many wineries wading into the entertainment business, tasting fees feel more and more like cover charges. Winemaking as craft gets lost in that equation . . .
And those blasted “free” tasting glasses are nothing more than tacky party favors. :o)
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I agree with both a) and b). As long as the purchase is not something absurd. $100 is approaching absurd. Luckily, there seem to be fewer wineries offering the “free” tasting glass. Someone probably hired an expensive marketing firm to determine that there was little return on that investment….
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Another excellent, thought-provoking post, Jeff. Absolutely with you on this too, just like on restaurant mark-ups. If you think about it, we are getting into a situation that is very similar to buying wine by the glass at a restaurant or bar – except that restaurants/bars sell you a product (a glass of wine) whilst for the wineries (as you suggest) tastings should be seen as a business development tool subsidized (at least in part!) by the winery itself, so as to afford potential customers an opportunity to taste their wines and hopefully getting them (and potentially their friends/acquaintances through word of mouth/blogs) on board and hooked to their wines. So, personally I can live with a minimal tasting fee (waivable in case of purchase of wine) but fees like $35/$50 are in my view just plain egregious. I would accept a higher tasting fee only in case of tastings of very limited production, top of the line wines, but even in that case the fee should be fully waived in case one or more bottles are bought.
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Thanks Stefano! I just don’t get it. If a winery wants you to buy their wine, they should want you to taste it. Once they charge a fee, most people (I imagine) would be more inclined to buy some wine if they realize that the fee would be waived (“I am already in for $20, it is only another $10 for a bottle–why not?”). I see that approach as a happy medium between the two other options. I still think all tastings should be free, but I also realize there is real potential for abuse with that.
I agree with you: The only way I could justify the $35/$50 range is if they pulled out some really special bottles with some age on them. Otherwise, it just seems like robbery.
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Thank you for your beautiful rant! Everyone I know is by now completely turned off by my constant ranting about this BS that is the tasting fee, especially the non-refundable tasting fee. It is an abomination: Hey, you want to sell me wine, so you need to show me that I should buy your stuff. Why should I pay for that? It is so annoying.
Go visit Germany, rarely does ever a tasting fee apply (the big names might not let you in, but the vast majority still lets you try for free).
I refuse to pay a tasting fee, especially when they are blown out of proportion. And especially when their tasting room staff is not trained in any way. At least effing invest that money in your staff.
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I realize that going into a tasting room I am likely to know a bit more than your average customer, but I am amazed at times at how little information the tasting room people can provide. I never put the costs of tastings with the knowledge of the pourers, but you are completely right–they should be connected. In the end, you are paying for the entire “experience”.
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Great post! I think its part of the region becoming as famous as the European regions it worked so hard to prove its worth against once upon a time. Fame makes everyone greedy eventually. At the wineries I frequent in Long Island, New England, the Hudson valley and Finger Lakes, most have tasting fees but they are minimal ($5-$15 for a flight of up to 5 wines) and many are willing to waive them if you buy bottles, pay for an educational winery tour (very good value with tasting included) or join their wine club. I hope as some of these regions find success that they won’t succumb to the gouging schemes, but only time will tell. While I usually get the fee waived or discounted through being in the business, I would flat out walk out on prinicipal if there was a $50 tasting fee and i wasn’t, say, at Cheval Blanc or Petrus.
It’s almost as bad as some wineries that charge $50 for wine I don’t feel is worth $5. Just cause you make wine and it costs you money, doesn’t mean it’s good. And those free tasting glasses are just continued advertising for them every time you are reminded of their winery and decide to go back, or someone uses the glass and ends up buying their wine. They should be free.
But its the corking fees at restaurants that get me most. Those fees too are ridiculous and often approaching or more than the cost of an affordable bottle of wine. People are still paying for the food, and if you don’t like it, don’t allow BYOB. But don’t allow it so you can charge as much or more for a bottle. Just have a good wine list with a range of price options. I’ve wanted to scream at more than one so-called ‘sommelier’.
On a lighter note, I haven’t tried the blogger card for when I’m not going through my other business contacts. Hmmmm…. (guess I felt it didn’t carry much weight?)
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Thanks so much for the comment!. I agree that the tasting fees are a way to encourage joining the wine club, which I think is quasi-appropriate. But it is a fine line between encouraging and strong-arming. I agree that tastings should be free–you are trying to sell your wine, not trying to extort potential customers.
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Oh to follow up because I see that most European wineries charge for tastings, I think the American wineries know that Americans have different cultural expectations and values and almost think its not good if they don’t have to pay a lot for it…Or that we’re so used to it from it happening in every other industry that we equate quality with price instantly.
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I think there are many things we could learn from our European counterparts.
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To me it comes back to the much more “business-mindedness” of the US: Everything needs a price-tag here to be valuable, be it a Valentine or going to University or paying insane amounts for healthcare…it’s just sad.
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“Sad” is a good word since the others that apply would violate my decision to keep the language on this site something I would not mind my sons reading.
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i mean DON”T charge for tastings. Sheesh, sorry.
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I figured 😉
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Pingback: Thursday Rant–Tasting Fees | Talk-A-Vino
Totally agree. I think tasting fee should always be applied, and find it disappointing when that’s not the case. We “cheap” out sometimes by sharing a tasting. After all, the pour is generally large enough and one of us is driving. Great points.
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Thanks so much for the comment! Glad to hear that there os some agreement in the great state of Texas! My wife and I often do the same, but I am afraid that I am not so gallant as to let her have the majority of the pour. There goes husband of the year!
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I see both sides of the argument and agree to points proffered by both sides. I have been to wineries that have offered tastings from gratis to about $30.00 per person. Some of the more expensive tastings, I have even booked months in advance to make a vacation more pleasurable. I have found that some of the more expensive tastings that I have done included tastings of wine that I have wanted to try, before investing major dollars for a wine that I may not enjoy. Then I have also received some generous discounts for booking these tastings and tours ahead of time. I usually leave the “gimme” glasses at the tasting room, of course I do have some very nice Riedel stemware with very elegant etched logos from some of our visits, to augment our own collection. I have just accepted the fact that wineries do charge, perhaps to keep people from getting bombed for free especially in highly populated winery areas.
– John
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Thanks for the well thought out comment John!
I think you are exactly right–we have all come to accept “the fact that wineries do charge.” It also seems that the wineries realize this, which has resulted in a steady upward creep in these fees. I am afraid before too long that $25 fees will become the norm….
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I hope that not all the wineries will embrace that thought, it will make trips to the wine country a little less fun.
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Good post with fantastic responses. i can understand the tasting fee, although like anyone, I would prefer they were free. The question to me is at what price? I think of the law of diminishing returns … thus at what price is the tasting not worth it? Besides, many of us are seeing the tasting fee TIMES two. But as someone said above, sharing one because of a driver is a good idea.
Maybe the airlines are just trying to maximize profits, but fortunately they don’t have as many things to charge for as the airlines … well, at least not yet. … Hmmm … an admission fee, glass fee, tasting fee, bathroom fee, etc.
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The tasting fee times two is a great point. Even at $15 (my point of diminishing returns), you’re looking at $30 just basically walking in the door. That’s $100+ a day (since we usually visit at least three wineries a day). I think I would rather put that towards buying 3-5 bottles of wine and figuring out what I like that way….
Don’t get me started on the airlines….
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Heck …. even 5-to-10 times 2 is not a cheap day … especially when adding in purchases.
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Great post, I wholeheartedly agree with you! The big Champagne houses, a few Burgundy Négociants and big Bordeaux chateaux, are the only places that I can think of that charge for tastings in France. That being said, very few wineries have dedicated ‘tasting rooms,’ so they don’t have to pay the overhead for rent, electricity, staff, etc.
Here in Switzerland, more wineries charge a small fee. At the wine cellar where I work we have a ‘grande degustation’ every month where we taste around 60 wines of a certain theme during a three day period. These wines change each month (Italian wines this month) and range from a great everyday drinking Chianti to Sassicaia 2009. We don’t charge a tasting fee and we have about 20 wines to taste every day. Also, we have cheese for our clients, free of charge 😉
As a ‘millenial’ with school loans to pay, I appreciate a place where you can try their wines for free or a small fee. You get someone in my generation hooked on your wine, they will be your customer for years to come, espescially when they have more money!
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Wow, it sounds like that is a wine cellar that I need to visit! I certainly agree with what seems to be your underlying premiss: You want to attract customers that will be with you “for years to come”. I think, you do this through great customer service, great product, and treating your customers like friends. You don’t charge your friends to try your wine….
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Oh dear, this is putting me off doing winery tours in America full stop.
Here in Europe, I have never paid a single tasting fee – however, we did the tour of the tunnels at Moet, which did cost a fee but included a substantial tasting, At the other champagne houses we visited in Epernay, I don’t recall paying tasting fees.
The situation in Australia (at least the regions I’ve visited: Margaret River, Mt Barker, Great Southern, Clare Valley, Barossa Valley, McLaren Vale and Yarra Valley) when I last visited those regions, was that 99.9% do not charge a standard tasting fee. Many will have a small fee for tasting the reserve wines – this may be $2 or $3 and is usually refundable on purchase of any bottle.
I seriously hope Australia doesn’t follow America in this regard, because tourism will defintely suffer.
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I would think it would limit visits to wineries as well, but you never hear that opinion over here. I guess us Americans are just resigned to the fact that we are going to get fleeced at every turn?
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On principal I don’t like tasting fees! If you want me to try your wine give me a sample and if I like it I will buy it. However I have been on the other side of the bar. I worked for a large corporate winery where we had refundable fees we also had tour buses full of people looking for cheep drinks who seldom bought anything but the cheepest thing we had on sale. I now work at 2 small family run wineries where we don’t charge a fee but try to sell the quality of our wines to people who will appreciate them. Next door to us is a winery that charges big fees because they want people to think their wine is exclusive.
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I understand the tour bus thing (but couldn’t you as a winery just say: “No tour busses”?). As for the charging big fees to make you seem exclusive–that is an interesting point–one that makes me think that they are even less interested in their customers and solely focused on profit.
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This part is about marketing, First you involve a celebrity or celebrities in your winery then you make your wine difficult to obtain and tell everyone you can only order it on one day then charge high fees to taste it making it very exclusive the masses then assume it is something special. As for the tour busses I only work there I don’t make the decisions or I might be tempted.
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The whole thing about “making a wine desirable” rubs me the wrong way big time. As for the bus thing, I did not mean to imply that I thought that you should do something about it. Rather, I meant to say that if tasting fees were instituted to dissuade large groups, there are steps the winery can take to limit those occurrences. If, on the other hand, they see the large crowds as a potential to rake in some fees, well then they under appreciate their tasting room staffs in favor of good old cash.
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I live and work in a wine area, when tourists drive around to sample some wine when they see a parking lot full of cars and busses they think this must be a good place to go so often wineries encourage busses, staff who are really interested in talking about the wine get frustrated and move to places that appreciate people who like wine or want to know more about it
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I can see that–a bit of a disconnect there.
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Here in NZ the fees are usually $5-10, with no fee if you buy a bottle. I would be embarassed not to pay something for their time and effort.
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Thanks for the comment! I am not sure I would go so far as saying I would be embarrassed not to pay, but I do think that they are providing a service. Having said that, I think the service they are providing is to get you to like their wine and then buy some. Should we start paying to test drive cars? Or to try on clothes before we buy them? Like I said, I have no problem with reasonable fees that can be applied to the purchase of a bottle, but when it seems as though the tasting fees are being assessed to get more money out of the customer, well, I do have a problem with that.
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I agree with you. When I was much younger, I saw tastings as an opportunity to get some free free booze. Now i am older i feel I prefer to show suitable respect for the producer’s efforts, and if that means paying a modest fee, well, I’m ok with that. Often, the wines i want to buy are outside of my budget at the time, and i leave without a purchase anyway. 50 buck fees are a rort, however!
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I agree that I am willing to pay a fee to taste a wine that otherwise I would never be able to afford to taste. But when I am there to actually buy wine, I just don’t get why they would not wave the fee.
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Wow, In Australia the norm is still thankfully for the fee to taste to range from free to the $0-5 category and often it’s waived when you show a genuine interest in wine and indicate that you’re not there to get sloshed! I do hope we don’t see our tasting fees jumping to be on par with other countries anytime soon!
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Yeah, I am with you. No need for wine lovers around the globe to be in the same predicament!
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Yes, this x1000! I am basically OK with the tasting fee if you don’t buy a bottle, but the tasting fee regardless of your purchases at their winery… what are they trying to seel, wine or tastings?!
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Exactly! It might be a “tasting” room, but isn’t the object to sell the wine?
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